Anyone knows why Virtual 86 mode does not work properly well when playing DOS games on Windows 3.1 on MS-DOS 6.0 ?

[Redislikefire85]

Hello...

I am trying to figure out why Virtual 86 mode does not work properly on Windows 3.1 when using it on PCem when playing DOS games....

Now what is Virtual 86 mode?
Well, Virtual 86 mode (Basically Virtual 8086, virtual mode or V86 mode mode.) In the 386 CPU and latter Virtual 86 mode allows the execution of real mode applications that are incapable of running directly in protected mode while the CPU is running a protected mode operating system. It is a hardware virtualization technique that allowed multiple 8086 processors to be emulated by the 386 processor: it emerged from the painful experiences with the 286 protected mode, which itself was not suitable to run concurrent real mode applications well.
VM86 mode uses a segmentation scheme identical to that of real mode (for compatibility reasons) which creates 20-bit linear addresses in the same manner as 20-bit physical addresses are created in real mode, but are subject to protected mode’s memory paging mechanism.

Well I was using PCem to emulate my family's original DOS computer on this emulator. And I have made a Windows 3.1 VM on PCem and I was wanting to use Windows 3.1 on PCem. And using Win 3.1 easy way to get to playing my DOS games through using Virtual 86 mode. But I am having problems with Virtual 86 mode on PCem. Sometimes my games would freeze up, it can freeze up and have sound loops or have system integrity errors. If I turn of the dynamic recompiler it works without freezing but I still get system integrity errors. (Because of the recomplier not being on because it needs for 386 enhanced mode to work properly on Windows 3.1.)
This wouldn’t happen on Virtual 86 mode on Windows 3.1 on real hardware right?
Don’t get me wrong I know you can play these games outside of Windows 3.1 on this emulator. But still… I still want some easy access to playing my DOS games with using virtual 86 mode on Windows 3.1.

I am using Windows 3.1 on MS-DOS 6.0. And I don't know if any other version like MS-DOS 5.0 has these problems...


I don’t even know what the problem is… And I don’t even know if I am not alone in this but, has anyone tried playing a DOS game through Windows 3.1 using Virtual 86 mode and experience this problem? Please let me know.

Thank you.

[SarahWalker]

Could you provide a specific example of this happening please?

[SarahWalker]

Also please provide details of emulator configuration.

Windows 3.1 _did_ have a lot of issues running DOS games, so at least some of the issues you're seeing are likely to not be emulator bugs.

[Redislikefire85]

Also please provide details of emulator configuration.

Windows 3.1 _did_ have a lot of issues running DOS games, so at least some of the issues you're seeing are likely to not be emulator bugs.

My emulator specs are these
I have 2 2GB hard disks with Windows 3.1 and MS-DOS 6.0 installed
Video: ET4000 at 256 colors
Sound: Soundblaster 16
CPU: Winchip 200
Motherboard: Award 430VX PCI
RAM:128 MB

[Redislikefire85]

Could you provide a specific example of this happening please?

Well you see I just bought Busytown (the one that come with 2 other games) and Mad dog mcree (the DOS version) from a Catholic Thrift store Yesterday. And I made disc images of the CDs to use on the VM. First I tried was Busytown, I ran it from Windows 3.1, and it plays fine for a couple of seconds but if I try to play like a minigame or exit a minigame it freezes and the midi kept holding the note. Same for if you leave the game and want to come back to play it more. Then I tried mad dog mcree, it also froze at the start screen and the sound keeps looping. It works fine with the dynamic recomplier off but if I try to play it again I would get exited out of DOS and get a system integrity error. Either with the Dyanamic recomplier on or off virtual 86 mode is going have these problems on PCem.

The freezing wouldn't happen on real hardware right?

[SarahWalker]

It might do.

[Redislikefire85]

It might do.

What do you mean it might do?

[SarahWalker]

As I said, Windows 3.1 does not do a very good job of running DOS games.

[salocin]

I recommend using hx-dos if it's a dos4gw game that requires windows. Then you might be able to run it from dos.

You can setup/run emsmagic and dosidle if you need a 32 bit vcpi interface in dos. If I can I just put the game files on a cd iso and inject a dos boot floppy for the game.

This is pretty portable and will work in multiple emulators. PCEM doesn't work with some grub4dos configs but other than it works consistently.

[Redislikefire85]

I recommend using hx-dos if it's a dos4gw game that requires windows. Then you might be able to run it from dos.

You can setup/run emsmagic and dosidle if you need a 32 bit vcpi interface in dos. If I can I just put the game files on a cd iso and inject a dos boot floppy for the game.

This is pretty portable and will work in multiple emulators. PCEM doesn't work with some grub4dos configs but other than it works consistently.

Can HX-DOS run on windows 3.1? Also I don't even know that the two games I'd mention will work with that. Those games came out in 1993.

[salocin]

It runs via dos and can start windows 3.1 in standard mode. Not sure if that will help.

[Redislikefire85]

It runs via dos and can start windows 3.1 in standard mode. Not sure if that will help.

But can it make DOS games work properly on 386 enhanced mode?

[salocin]

I would give it a shot. But unless it's necessary to run the game I would just make a script to load the game from dos. Hx-dos does not have any acceleration for graphics. But if it's a 2d game it could work fine.

Typically I recommend researching the game for any patches or mods that will help with compatibility.

Most emulators are only going to support running the software as it would on a real machine and you still need to be familiar with making the game run.

Some games did not run without patching or specific environments or command line options.

[Redislikefire85]

I would give it a shot. But unless it's necessary to run the game I would just make a script to load the game from dos. Hx-dos does not have any acceleration for graphics. But if it's a 2d game it could work fine.

Typically I recommend researching the game for any patches or mods that will help with compatibility.

Most emulators are only going to support running the software as it would on a real machine and you still need to be familiar with making the game run.

Some games did not run without patching or specific environments or command line options.

How would you make a script to load the game from DOS on Windows 3.1, and if so would there be a way to load any game automatically on DOS without making one script for one game?

[salocin]

Thanks for your patience, with me.

Here is an example, for loading Full Throttle from a CD by injecting a dos boot floppy into the cdrom:

Autoexec.bat:
@ECHO OFF
REM MODE CON CP PREPARE=((437)EGA.CPI)
REM MODE CON CP SELECT=437
REM KEYB US,,KEYBOARD.SYS
LH DOSKEY
LH DOSLFN /Z:A:\CP437UNI.TBL
LH CTMOUSE > NUL
LH MSCDEX /D:IDE-CD
path=a:;c:\os\dos71
ft.bat

Config.sys:
DEVICEHIGH=himem.sys /TESTMEM:OFF
DEVICEHIGH=EMM386.EXE NOEMS
DEVICEHIGH=VIDE-CDD.SYS /D:IDE-CD
LASTDRIVE=Z
SHELL=COMMAND.COM /P /E:640
DOS=AUTO
FCBS=4,0
BUFFERS=20,0
LASTDRIVE=26
STACKS=9,256

Ft.bat
hxldr32.exe
c:
cd resource
ft.exe

Full throttle had a Windows release and also had a Lucasboot utility for making a boot disk. Fallout 1 has a similar utility and both the dos and windows version of fallout1 can be launched with hxldr32.exe from dos. Both games work with a sound blaster16. You can configure Imuse or sound.exe and move the configs over to specify the target sound card.

You can use winimg to inject/export a boot floppy into a cdrom iso.

On the iso I have a folder structure like this: /os / dos71 that has the files for dos71, the floppy has all files referenced in the congig.sys and autoexec.bat.
All files from the cd are in the root of the image.

No idea if this will help in your situation.

[leilei]

How would you make a script to load the game from DOS on Windows 3.1,

There's a reason why many DOS games from around Windows 3.x's time shipped with .PIF files. Win95 also has some built-in recognition for many DOS games (before 1995) to produce a PIF on the spot to boot into DOS for them to work. One of Doom's earliest wide complaints was that it didn't work under Windows 3.1.


i'm not sure why HXDOS is being brought up here.

[Redislikefire85]

Thanks for your patience, with me.

Here is an example, for loading Full Throttle from a CD by injecting a dos boot floppy into the cdrom:

Autoexec.bat:
@ECHO OFF
REM MODE CON CP PREPARE=((437)EGA.CPI)
REM MODE CON CP SELECT=437
REM KEYB US,,KEYBOARD.SYS
LH DOSKEY
LH DOSLFN /Z:A:\CP437UNI.TBL
LH CTMOUSE > NUL
LH MSCDEX /D:IDE-CD
path=a:;c:\os\dos71
ft.bat

Config.sys:
DEVICEHIGH=himem.sys /TESTMEM:OFF
DEVICEHIGH=EMM386.EXE NOEMS
DEVICEHIGH=VIDE-CDD.SYS /D:IDE-CD
LASTDRIVE=Z
SHELL=COMMAND.COM /P /E:640
DOS=AUTO
FCBS=4,0
BUFFERS=20,0
LASTDRIVE=26
STACKS=9,256

Ft.bat
hxldr32.exe
c:
cd resource
ft.exe

Full throttle had a Windows release and also had a Lucasboot utility for making a boot disk. Fallout 1 has a similar utility and both the dos and windows version of fallout1 can be launched with hxldr32.exe from dos. Both games work with a sound blaster16. You can configure Imuse or sound.exe and move the configs over to specify the target sound card.

You can use winimg to inject/export a boot floppy into a cdrom iso.

On the iso I have a folder structure like this: /os / dos71 that has the files for dos71, the floppy has all files referenced in the congig.sys and autoexec.bat.
All files from the cd are in the root of the image.

No idea if this will help in your situation.

Ok that might make some sense. Can you please give us like a visual demo on how both your Autoexec.bat and Config.sys would work on getting DOS games to work on Windows 3.1 when on 386 enhanced mode? Like make a video on it on youtube so people would be more aware of this when next time someone is making a DOS/Windows 3.1 VM on PCem please?

EDIT: Also I am running Busytown from the .bat on the C drive, and maddog mcree on DOS from the .EXE file from the C drive too.

[Redislikefire85]

How would you make a script to load the game from DOS on Windows 3.1,

There's a reason why many DOS games from around Windows 3.x's time shipped with .PIF files. Win95 also has some built-in recognition for many DOS games (before 1995) to produce a PIF on the spot to boot into DOS for them to work. One of Doom's earliest wide complaints was that it didn't work under Windows 3.1.


i'm not sure why HXDOS is being brought up here.

And how would you get a PIF to let DOS games to run while having Windows 3.1 running while you are playing your DOS games from native DOS instead of relying on Windows 3.1's Virtual 86 mode? I'm listening leilei.

[leilei]

You don't.

[Redislikefire85]

You don't.

All I can say and realize is that Virtual 86 does a shitty job at emulating real mode on Windows 3.1. And I assume that there might have been some better emulation solution to real mode than virtual 86 mode on Windows 3.1 back in the day.

[salocin]

No idea if games will work the way you want but win 31 installs and run enhanced move in PCEM V16 using dos 6.22. I tried other versions of msdos 7 and 8 and they had issues starting.

I just formatted an image and did a sys transfer to the drive and installed 31.

Apologies for complicating the issue with my recommendation. I usually try to find a minim that works and go from there. The only reason I mentioned emsmagic is you can start a 32 bit VCPI instance from dos. No idea if that's needed on your end.

winworld stated:
To Install: Windows 3.1 requires an installation of either MS-DOS or PC-DOS and we recommend using MS-DOS 6.22 if you are unsure of a version.

[Redislikefire85]

No idea if games will work the way you want but win 31 installs and run enhanced move in PCEM V16 using dos 6.22. I tried other versions of msdos 7 and 8 and they had issues starting.

I just formatted an image and did a sys transfer to the drive and installed 31.

Apologies for complicating the issue with my recommendation. I usually try to find a minim that works and go from there. The only reason I mentioned emsmagic is you can start a 32 bit VCPI instance from dos. No idea if that's needed on your end.

winworld stated:
To Install: Windows 3.1 requires an installation of either MS-DOS or PC-DOS and we recommend using MS-DOS 6.22 if you are unsure of a version.

Just to question your statement about emsmagic here. Do you think that emsmagic emulates real mode on Windows 3.1 better than virtual 86 mode?

And why is MS-DOS 6.22 recommended for Windows 3.1?

EDIT: Would emsmagic run while Windows 3.1 is on?

[salocin]

I took the time to verify Win311 loads enhanced mode on PCEM, if your not going report if that allows the game to run then I cant help further.

I don't have that game and you would need to take part in getting your problem fixed if that's what you want.

Computer theory class hosted by me is $200 an hour. Just FYI. Plenty of other people could help better, but I know what I can do with my own time.

[Redislikefire85]

I took the time to verify Win311 loads enhanced mode on PCEM, if your not going report if that allows the game to run then I cant help further.

I don't have that game and you would need to take part in getting your problem fixed if that's what you want.

Computer theory class hosted by me is $200 an hour. Just FYI. Plenty of other people could help better, but I know what I can do with my own time.

You know I will go ask on VOGONS instead.

[Redislikefire85]

UPDATE

Well it looks like I figured out the problem with running Busytown. Somehow I had to use a DOS 622C bootdisk on Windows 3.1 in order to make it run properly while Windows 3.1 is on operation. It really made a difference on using a DOS operating system bootdisk on Windows 3.1 to make Busytown run properly on there. But Mad dog mcree still has the same freezing and sound looping issue... Which I still need to find a work around for it.

[ruben_balea]

Have you tried using a 386 or 486 CPU for 386 games? too much CPU speed is useless for games made to run fine on 16MHz systems and can be an issue...

[Agorima]

UPDATE

Well it looks like I figured out the problem with running Busytown. Somehow I had to use a DOS 622C bootdisk on Windows 3.1 in order to make it run properly while Windows 3.1 is on operation. It really made a difference on using a DOS operating system bootdisk on Windows 3.1 to make Busytown run properly on there. But Mad dog mcree still has the same freezing and sound looping issue... Which I still need to find a work around for it.

The issue is that you are trying to run a DOS game from 1993 (Richard Scarry's Busytown) in an emulated environment from 1997, processor included.
So please try to run the same game in a emulated environment from 1992-93, like a 486 with 33 Mhz and 4 MB of RAM.
You can also use the latest and the greatest MS-DOS version at the time of Windows 3.1 release, MS-DOS 5, which is fine also for most games from the early 1990s.

[Redislikefire85]

Have you tried using a 386 or 486 CPU for 386 games? too much CPU speed is useless for games made to run fine on 16MHz systems and can be an issue...

I think I might figured out that using Mo'slo would help. Also would Mo'slo work on Windows 3.1?

[Redislikefire85]

UPDATE

Well it looks like I figured out the problem with running Busytown. Somehow I had to use a DOS 622C bootdisk on Windows 3.1 in order to make it run properly while Windows 3.1 is on operation. It really made a difference on using a DOS operating system bootdisk on Windows 3.1 to make Busytown run properly on there. But Mad dog mcree still has the same freezing and sound looping issue... Which I still need to find a work around for it.

The issue is that you are trying to run a DOS game from 1993 (Richard Scarry's Busytown) in an emulated environment from 1997, processor included.
So please try to run the same game in a emulated environment from 1992-93, like a 486 with 33 Mhz and 4 MB of RAM.
You can also use the latest and the greatest MS-DOS version at the time of Windows 3.1 release, MS-DOS 5, which is fine also for most games from the early 1990s.

Well Mo'slo would help. Because how I know of this is that if you disable the CPU internal cache it makes the game work fine on Windows 3.1. As I know that Mo'slo disables the CPU internal cache when playing a DOS game that is speed sensitive.

But I am questioning if Mo'slo would work on Windows 3.1 and does it automatically disable the CPU internal cache when playing the DOS game and does it turn the Internal Cache on the CPU back on if you exit the DOS software? Unless it's a TSR.

[Agorima]

UPDATE

Well it looks like I figured out the problem with running Busytown. Somehow I had to use a DOS 622C bootdisk on Windows 3.1 in order to make it run properly while Windows 3.1 is on operation. It really made a difference on using a DOS operating system bootdisk on Windows 3.1 to make Busytown run properly on there. But Mad dog mcree still has the same freezing and sound looping issue... Which I still need to find a work around for it.

The issue is that you are trying to run a DOS game from 1993 (Richard Scarry's Busytown) in an emulated environment from 1997, processor included.
So please try to run the same game in a emulated environment from 1992-93, like a 486 with 33 Mhz and 4 MB of RAM.
You can also use the latest and the greatest MS-DOS version at the time of Windows 3.1 release, MS-DOS 5, which is fine also for most games from the early 1990s.

Well Mo'slo would help. Because how I know of this is that if you disable the CPU internal cache it makes the game work fine on Windows 3.1. As I know that Mo'slo disables the CPU internal cache when playing a DOS game that is speed sensitive.

But I am questioning if Mo'slo would work on Windows 3.1 and does it automatically disable the CPU internal cache when playing the DOS game and does it turn the Internal Cache on the CPU back on if you exit the DOS software? Unless it's a TSR.

You can apply the same tricks as you would do on the real machine. But for timing reasons, I suggest to create an emulated environment, like I said before.
Programmers tied the games to the speed of the processors available at the time.