Networking discussion

Discussion of development and patch submission.
amadama
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Networking discussion

Postby amadama » Fri 14 Aug, 2015 7:05 pm

@SA1988, is it possible for you to update your NE2000 patch and submit it in time for a v10 release?
startmenu
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Re: v10 rough timetable

Postby startmenu » Sat 15 Aug, 2015 5:14 am

Here's a ne2k patch that I took from PCem-custom branch.
ne2000_for_rev305.zip
(16.65 KiB) Downloaded 254 times


Full folder with that patch:
http://kikyoulinux.ga/misc/PCem_rev305-ac4c72bfeeb0-eth.7z
Battler
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Re: v10 rough timetable

Postby Battler » Sat 15 Aug, 2015 12:45 pm

That's SA1988's patch. The file names are identical.
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ppgrainbow
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Re: v10 rough timetable

Postby ppgrainbow » Sat 15 Aug, 2015 5:25 pm

Battler wrote:That's SA1988's patch. The file names are identical.


That's what I've been thinking. I tried running the Arachne web browser on the WinBIOS 486 clone and I couldn't go online at all. :(

It would be better to have SLiRP networking support (code that is ported from Qemu). I'm gonna try to ask Neozeed to see if he has the time to try to implement SLiRP networknig with the NE2000 network card.
SA1988
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Re: v10 rough timetable

Postby SA1988 » Sat 15 Aug, 2015 5:52 pm

ppgrainbow wrote:
Battler wrote:That's SA1988's patch. The file names are identical.


That's what I've been thinking. I tried running the Arachne web browser on the WinBIOS 486 clone and I couldn't go online at all. :(

It would be better to have SLiRP networking support (code that is ported from Qemu). I'm gonna try to ask Neozeed to see if he has the time to try to implement SLiRP networknig with the NE2000 network card.


have you set the netinterface parameter to match your main host network?
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ppgrainbow
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Re: v10 rough timetable

Postby ppgrainbow » Sat 15 Aug, 2015 5:55 pm

And where can I find the Net Interface parameter?

Does the IP address on the host and PCem have to match completely?
SA1988
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Re: v10 rough timetable

Postby SA1988 » Sat 15 Aug, 2015 5:59 pm

ppgrainbow wrote:And where can I find the Net Interface parameter?

Does the IP address on the host and PCem have to match completely?


netinterface is in the pcem.cfg settings. Also you can use Wireshark to view how many host networks you have. To go to the internet through PCem you basically have to connect your Local Connection "adapter" to PCem's netinterface via putting the exact number of the adapter to netinterface.
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ppgrainbow
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Re: v10 rough timetable

Postby ppgrainbow » Sat 15 Aug, 2015 6:15 pm

SA1988 wrote:
ppgrainbow wrote:And where can I find the Net Interface parameter?

Does the IP address on the host and PCem have to match completely?


netinterface is in the pcem.cfg settings. Also you can use Wireshark to view how many host networks you have. To go to the internet through PCem you basically have to connect your Local Connection "adapter" to PCem's netinterface via putting the exact number of the adapter to netinterface.

Thank you for clarifying this to me. If it still doesn't work, I'll post a screenshot to see what I could be doing wrong.

Update: Okay, SA1988. I tried your suggestions but I still don't have a working internet connection at all regardless of what IP address that I use. Here's a screenshot below for proof:

No internet.png
No internet.png (83.46 KiB) Viewed 10345 times

In order to get the mouse to work with the NE2000 adapter, I had to see the IRQ to 3, because setting it to 10 causes a conflict with the serial mouse.

Looking at the network interface via DOSBox SVN-Daum, it found that it couldn't even detect my Linksys WMP54G v4.1 PCI network card at all:

Network Interface List
-----------------------------------
1. rpcap://\Device\NPF_{2C406DE1-5216-44E0-9872-F0E19C532BAA}
(Network adapter 'Microsoft' on local host)
2. rpcap://\Device\NPF_{770B4A7C-6EEA-4DFF-BA9E-EB84F989EBFE}
(Network adapter 'MS Tunnel Interface Driver' on local host)
3. rpcap://\Device\NPF_{E3576F36-FEBD-4569-A65D-4D1289C9A517}
(Network adapter 'Realtek PCIe GBE Family Controller' on local host)

That's one of the reasons why I have been suggesting SLiRP networking, because it doesn't require the use of WinPcap driver in which Windows 10 doesn't support at this time.

I see that you've implemented the ISA only version of the NE2000 network adapter and in order to get it work with the Arachne web browser, I had to use the NE2000.COM packet driver.
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ender
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Re: v10 rough timetable

Postby ender » Sun 16 Aug, 2015 9:22 am

Arachne needs a packet driver to use a network card - it doesn't use anything else.

(also, I posted this yesterday, but the post seems to have vanished): Has anybody tried the Win10Pcap yet?
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ppgrainbow
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Re: v10 rough timetable

Postby ppgrainbow » Sun 16 Aug, 2015 4:37 pm

ender wrote:Arachne needs a packet driver to use a network card - it doesn't use anything else.

(also, I posted this yesterday, but the post seems to have vanished): Has anybody tried the Win10Pcap yet?


I had the NE2000 packet driver installed in the \DOS directory and still, the DOSBox SVN-Daum network interface list didn't detect my network card at all. Win10Pcap is only designed to run on Windows 7 SP1 and higher and I won't be able to test it on this computer that has Windows Vista. WinPcap hasn't been updated since 2013 and it's unlikely that it will be updated for Windows 10.

That's why I'm suggesting SLiRP networking support to use for the NE2000 adapter instead of WinPcap. :)
SarahWalker
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Re: v10 rough timetable

Postby SarahWalker » Sun 16 Aug, 2015 5:19 pm

I think in conclusion this discussion has confirmed that the NE2000 patch will not be included in v10.
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ppgrainbow
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Re: v10 rough timetable

Postby ppgrainbow » Sun 16 Aug, 2015 5:40 pm

TomWalker wrote:I think in conclusion this discussion has confirmed that the NE2000 patch will not be included in v10.

That's what I've been thinking all along.

The NE2000 patch from SA1988 requires the use of Winpcap and it has not been updated since 2013. Furthermore, Winpcap is incompatible with Windows 10.

It's obvious that the code for the NE2000 patch might not be stable and it has not been updated in a while. I don't think anyone has the time to implement it right now.
Last edited by ppgrainbow on Sun 16 Aug, 2015 6:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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ender
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Re: v10 rough timetable

Postby ender » Sun 16 Aug, 2015 6:43 pm

I don't see what's wrong with requiring WinPcap/Win10Pcap for networking - unlike slirp, this makes the VM connected directly to the network, which means that any protocol should work, not just (a limited subset of) TCP/IP (also, I just tested Win10Pcap, and it works fine - I wasn't able to do so earlier, because I wasn't at home). I also don't see a problem with WinPcap not being updated any more - the last version still works fine on older systems, and anything more recent can use Win10Pcap.
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ppgrainbow
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Re: v10 rough timetable

Postby ppgrainbow » Sun 16 Aug, 2015 7:00 pm

ender wrote:I don't see what's wrong with requiring WinPcap/Win10Pcap for networking - unlike slirp, this makes the VM connected directly to the network, which means that any protocol should work, not just (a limited subset of) TCP/IP (also, I just tested Win10Pcap, and it works fine - I wasn't able to do so earlier, because I wasn't at home). I also don't see a problem with WinPcap not being updated any more - the last version still works fine on older systems, and anything more recent can use Win10Pcap.

Ender, SLiRP networking is much better than WinPcap. SLiRP networking (ported from Qemu) makes the VM directly connect to the network without having to require the use the of a host network interface. The only downside to using SLiRP networking is that you can't use network drives.

I have used SLiRP networking since Qemu 0.9.0 and it has worked reliably. The only problem right now is that Tom Walker has concluded that it is not feasible to implement WinPcap networking based off of SA1988's outdated networking patch and no one has the time nor the resources to implement it and make the feature permanent under PCem v10 and possibly beyond.

When I got my first PC for Christmas back in late 1993, I did not have networking capabilities and there were literally no compatible internet browsers for a few years. PCem is literally based off my no network theory of the early 90s era.
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ender
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Re: v10 rough timetable

Postby ender » Sun 16 Aug, 2015 7:07 pm

My experience with SLIRP is the opposite - while it mostly works for simple TCP/IP stuff, you can't use anything that isn't IP-based (IPX/SPX for example), which IMHO makes it far less valuable.
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ppgrainbow
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Re: v10 rough timetable

Postby ppgrainbow » Sun 16 Aug, 2015 7:13 pm

ender wrote:My experience with SLIRP is the opposite - while it mostly works for simple TCP/IP stuff, you can't use anything that isn't IP-based (IPX/SPX for example), which IMHO makes it far less valuable.

That's why I suggested SLiRP over WinPcap. Simple TCP/IP includes web browsing, IRC chat and FTP access. By design, there will be no IPX/SPX support. As far as I know, it isn't hard to implement SLiRP networking and add support for the NE2000 network card to use.
Battler
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Re: v10 rough timetable

Postby Battler » Sun 16 Aug, 2015 7:17 pm

- ppgrainbow: Your status panel ZIP only includes PNG's and no source code for some reason.

Also, network drives and sharing are a big part of the period network experience and SLiRP doesn't seem to support that.

And I was thinking of yet another way to access the Internet in PCem - adding emulation of a modem. That way you can bring back the full '90's spirit. :D
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ender
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Re: v10 rough timetable

Postby ender » Sun 16 Aug, 2015 7:25 pm

ppgrainbow wrote:Simple TCP/IP includes web browsing, IRC chat and FTP access.
...all of which are of little use in the machines PCem emulates.
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ppgrainbow
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Re: v10 rough timetable

Postby ppgrainbow » Sun 16 Aug, 2015 7:25 pm

Battler wrote:- ppgrainbow: Your status panel ZIP only includes PNG's and no source code for some reason.
Also, network drives and sharing are a big part of the period network experience and SLiRP doesn't seem to support that.

And I was thinking of yet another way to access the Internet in PCem - adding emulation of a modem. That way you can bring back the full '90's spirit. :D

Unfortunately, the status panel ZIP only includes images at this time as it is only a work in progress. Source code will need to be implemented in order for it to work and I don't know if I will have the time to do that. This includes number images that I supplied for the CPU clock speed and emulation speed.

Now, back to the networking. By design, SLiRP networking has no support for network drives and sharing like in QEMU and most recently Bochs v2.6.5 and up. I'm trying to look for the source code for the SLiRP networking features online, but it hasn't been much of a help.

It's possible to map network drives and share them over VPN using TUN/TAP networking. A feature that Qemu supports: http://www.linksysinfo.org/index.php?th ... vpn.69595/
Last edited by ppgrainbow on Sun 16 Aug, 2015 7:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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ppgrainbow
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Re: v10 rough timetable

Postby ppgrainbow » Sun 16 Aug, 2015 7:27 pm

ender wrote:
ppgrainbow wrote:Simple TCP/IP includes web browsing, IRC chat and FTP access.
...all of which are of little use in the machines PCem emulates.

Probably not without having to implement TUN/TAP networking support like Qemu does.
Alegend45
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Re: v10 rough timetable

Postby Alegend45 » Sun 16 Aug, 2015 10:42 pm

Why not just use Winsock?
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ppgrainbow
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Re: v10 rough timetable

Postby ppgrainbow » Sun 16 Aug, 2015 10:45 pm

Alegend45 wrote:Why not just use Winsock?

Winsock alone is not going to be sufficient enough to get networking functional under PCem. SLiRP networking is the easiest way to get simple TCP/IP networking capabilities with a packet driver installed.
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Re: v10 rough timetable

Postby Battler » Sun 16 Aug, 2015 10:51 pm

Except while simple TCP/IP is good enough for Qemu, on PCem it would fall short of providing a proper period network experience.
amadama
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Re: v10 rough timetable

Postby amadama » Mon 17 Aug, 2015 1:56 am

TomWalker wrote:I think in conclusion this discussion has confirmed that the NE2000 patch will not be included in v10.


Tom, the NE2000 patch seems to be working just fine. I have not encountered any issues with it so far.
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ppgrainbow
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Re: v10 rough timetable

Postby ppgrainbow » Mon 17 Aug, 2015 2:58 am

amadama wrote:
TomWalker wrote:I think in conclusion this discussion has confirmed that the NE2000 patch will not be included in v10.


Tom, the NE2000 patch seems to be working just fine. I have not encountered any issues with it so far.


Although it maybe working fine for you, it's not for me. The NIC list is not detecting my host network card at all.
amadama
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Re: v10 rough timetable

Postby amadama » Mon 17 Aug, 2015 3:45 am

WinPCAP is known to not work with wireless adapters in promiscuous mode in windows, that does not make it a non-viable solution.
Look, this is Tom Walker's project and it is his decision either way. If someone wants to write SLIRP code or serial port redirection it is up to them to do so and then submit it to Tom for acceptance.
Battler
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Re: v10 rough timetable

Postby Battler » Mon 17 Aug, 2015 3:50 am

- ppgrainbow: Install Win10Pcap on Windows 10 instead of WinPcap. It's binary compatible with WinCap but with Windows 10 support.

It would be fair enough on PCem if it was on a 66 MHz 486 emulated machine, but you can expect browsing to be slow. Overall, why would TCP/IP support fall short on PCem?

No, my point is, networking back then went far beyond TCP/IP. So a solely TCP/IP network emulation just looks incorrect for the time period.
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ppgrainbow
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Re: v10 rough timetable

Postby ppgrainbow » Mon 17 Aug, 2015 4:08 am

Battler wrote:- ppgrainbow: Install Win10Pcap on Windows 10 instead of WinPcap. It's binary compatible with WinCap but with Windows 10 support.

It would be fair enough on PCem if it was on a 66 MHz 486 emulated machine, but you can expect browsing to be slow. Overall, why would TCP/IP support fall short on PCem?

No, my point is, networking back then went far beyond TCP/IP. So a solely TCP/IP network emulation just looks incorrect for the time period.

Like I said, Win10Pcap is not mentioned to be compatible with Windows Vista. I attempted to installed and stated that the operating system (Windows Vista) is not supported...so, I will have to stick with WinPcap. Sorry.

As for networking emulation, that doesn't sound right.
Last edited by ppgrainbow on Mon 17 Aug, 2015 4:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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ppgrainbow
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Re: v10 rough timetable

Postby ppgrainbow » Mon 17 Aug, 2015 4:12 am

amadama wrote:WinPCAP is known to not work with wireless adapters in promiscuous mode in windows, that does not make it a non-viable solution.
Look, this is Tom Walker's project and it is his decision either way. If someone wants to write SLIRP code or serial port redirection it is up to them to do so and then submit it to Tom for acceptance.

I had a talk with Neozeed in regards to adding SLiRP code to PCem and it looks like that I might have to wait a while before it it implemented. Why is Winpcap known to not work at all with wireless adapters in promiscuous mode in Windows operating systems?
Battler
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Re: v10 rough timetable

Postby Battler » Mon 17 Aug, 2015 1:24 pm

ppgrainbow wrote:Like I said, Win10Pcap is not mentioned to be compatible with Windows Vista. I attempted to installed and stated that the operating system (Windows Vista) is not supported...so, I will have to stick with WinPcap. Sorry.

Then use WinPCap on Vista and Win10PCap on 10. Also, I have no problems with it and my wireless adapter on Windows 7.

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