Future graphics card emulation

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SarahWalker
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Re: Future graphics card emulation

Post by SarahWalker »

Given that you decided to make your first and at that point only post a request for stuff, I felt a little snark was in order.

Particularly as your request for the Trio3D suggests you didn't actually read this thread before posting.
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mijk
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Re: Future graphics card emulation

Post by mijk »

I didn't see Trio3D in the original list. I didn't Ctrl-F either. I'll keep my requests to myself and ride out whatever comes. Thanks for your time.
Xanarki
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Re: Future graphics card emulation

Post by Xanarki »

Is the Matrox emulation still dead in the water? Even though it seemed really unique, simultaneously, I can see it being too big of a headache.

Also, I know someone mentioned the Number Nine Imagine 128, and that's basically a CAD card. But are there resources available for the Number Nine Revolution set? I'm only curious because it was, err, semi-successful, sort've...at least more so than a few others.
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leilei
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Re: Future graphics card emulation

Post by leilei »

On the PCX1/2 front, this repository just happened

https://github.com/powervr-graphics/PowerVR-Series1

No tech docs, but the simulat2 (PCX1) and simulat3 (PCX2) folders have a lot of juicy bits for emulation reference in there as that's simulator code (among hardware registers, etc).
MrPepka
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Re: Future graphics card emulation

Post by MrPepka »

That's my question. I wonder if this program could somehow help emulate the graphics card (assuming its source code would be published)?
https://www.3dfxzone.it/dir/tools/3d_analyze/download/
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leilei
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Re: Future graphics card emulation

Post by leilei »

All 3DAnalyze does is inject overrides of caps and ids for Direct3D and OpenGL. It won't emulate anything. Way back then, it was mostly used to try to get DX8/9 games to work on DX7 hardware (often to trainwreck/slow results), and its hooking wasn't very stable.
GeoffreyMcJefferson
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Re: Future graphics card emulation

Post by GeoffreyMcJefferson »

The Xemu original Xbox emulator emulates a GeForce 3 and at a pretty good performance too. Would it be possible to make use of this code in PCEM?
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unreal9010
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Re: Future graphics card emulation

Post by unreal9010 »

GeoffreyMcJefferson wrote: Thu 23 Jun, 2022 9:58 am The Xemu original Xbox emulator emulates a GeForce 3 and at a pretty good performance too. Would it be possible to make use of this code in PCEM?
No (or at least not at this point). Not only it's difficult to write the code to accurately emulate such complex piece of hardware, currently there are no GF3 datasheets available.
Note that the GeForce 3 chips we had in our desktop PCs and the one found in Microsoft Xbox are not the same. The latter is a GF3 derivative known as NV2A.
Bear in mind that in order to get the most out of GeForce 3 you'd need at least an entry-level Pentium 4 processor. Given how things stand it wouldn't make any sense to actually write the code for GF3 emulation at this point. Currently the fastest CPUs that PCem emulates are upper tier Pentium II and AMD K6-III processors, none of which are ideal to pair with GF3, not to mention that even the fastest Alder Lake processors could barely handle them (I can hardly go above Pentium II 400 with my slightly overclocked 12900 KF).
I would say somewhere around 2030 would be the more realistic date to get the GF 3 emulation done (provided that datasheets with sufficient information are available by then, of course).
MrPepka
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Re: Future graphics card emulation

Post by MrPepka »

And I have a question about the emulation of GeForce cards. Could these 2 repositories (+ nouveau driver source) help emulate these cards?
https://github.com/NVIDIA/open-gpu-kernel-modules
https://github.com/envytools/envytools
And is it possible to emulate hardware via High Level Emulation (it's not hardware emulation, but always something)? Because if so, maybe the TeknoParrot source code would help? - https://github.com/teknogods/OpenParrot There were also modified drivers for GeForce cards (X-Treme G for newer cards and Omega for older cards), but I don't know if this will help in this topic (probably none of these drivers has the source code disclosed)
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unreal9010
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Re: Future graphics card emulation

Post by unreal9010 »

MrPepka wrote: Sat 25 Jun, 2022 2:52 pm And I have a question about the emulation of GeForce cards. Could these 2 repositories (+ nouveau driver source) help emulate these cards?
https://github.com/NVIDIA/open-gpu-kernel-modules
https://github.com/envytools/envytools
And is it possible to emulate hardware via High Level Emulation (it's not hardware emulation, but always something)? Because if so, maybe the TeknoParrot source code would help? - https://github.com/teknogods/OpenParrot There were also modified drivers for GeForce cards (X-Treme G for newer cards and Omega for older cards), but I don't know if this will help in this topic (probably none of these drivers has the source code disclosed)
No. PCem is a low level emulator where accuracy is a top priority so high level emulation is out of the question.
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CryptidWorks
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Re: Future graphics card emulation

Post by CryptidWorks »

unreal9010 wrote: Sat 25 Jun, 2022 6:01 pm
MrPepka wrote: Sat 25 Jun, 2022 2:52 pm And I have a question about the emulation of GeForce cards. Could these 2 repositories (+ nouveau driver source) help emulate these cards?
https://github.com/NVIDIA/open-gpu-kernel-modules
https://github.com/envytools/envytools
And is it possible to emulate hardware via High Level Emulation (it's not hardware emulation, but always something)? Because if so, maybe the TeknoParrot source code would help? - https://github.com/teknogods/OpenParrot There were also modified drivers for GeForce cards (X-Treme G for newer cards and Omega for older cards), but I don't know if this will help in this topic (probably none of these drivers has the source code disclosed)
No. PCem is a low level emulator where accuracy is a top priority so high level emulation is out of the question.
It would likely be a pain in the ass code high level emulation that wasn't extermely glitchy for something as complex as an entire IBM PC that's intended to run an OS and then software within that OS anyway. Especially since you'd have to ensure the high-level mode for each piece of hardware worked with the high-level mode on all the other relevant hardware.

Not like emulating a console where it's just one configuration and done
wishusknight
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Re: Future graphics card emulation

Post by wishusknight »

GeoffreyMcJefferson wrote: Thu 23 Jun, 2022 9:58 am The Xemu original Xbox emulator emulates a GeForce 3 and at a pretty good performance too. Would it be possible to make use of this code in PCEM?
Xemu uses HLE. And as mentioned, its really only a gForce3 in name. Its pixel pipelines are based on a GF3 but have fewer stages, which would actually make them closer to a GF2 variant but with the bits of programmable IP blocks. While its shader core(s) is(are) based on a GF3 with some GF4 goodies like the more advanced color compression and HSR. It also has deeper state tables(?) to juggle bandwidth with a central CPU sharing it.

So XEMU just hooks calls to the hosts direct 3d with extensive work done to a bunch of timers to ensure accurate performance. (at least I think that is how its done)
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