Voodoo3 support in Future ?

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Starfox
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Voodoo3 support in Future ?

Post by Starfox » Mon 20 Apr, 2020 1:47 pm

Hi,

it is possible to get Voodoo3 support in Future ?

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SarahWalker
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Re: Voodoo3 support in Future ?

Post by SarahWalker » Mon 20 Apr, 2020 3:28 pm

Jesus, I only just released v16, and you already want MORE!

Siggy12
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Re: Voodoo3 support in Future ?

Post by Siggy12 » Mon 20 Apr, 2020 4:01 pm

SarahWalker wrote:
Mon 20 Apr, 2020 3:28 pm
Jesus, I only just released v16, and you already want MORE!
LOL!!! Pcem is never enough Sarah ;) !!!

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omarsis81
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Re: Voodoo3 support in Future ?

Post by omarsis81 » Mon 20 Apr, 2020 4:07 pm

The thing is that programming is stressful, and besides PCem Sarah has her work and a personal life
I bet that after releasing v16 she wants to not even thinking in PCem for some time...

Siggy12
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Re: Voodoo3 support in Future ?

Post by Siggy12 » Mon 20 Apr, 2020 4:16 pm

omarsis81 wrote:
Mon 20 Apr, 2020 4:07 pm
The thing is that programming is stressful, and besides PCem Sarah has her work and a personal life
I bet that after releasing v16 she wants to not even thinking in PCem for some time...
Sure !!! I was jocking anyway!

tk421
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Re: Voodoo3 support in Future ?

Post by tk421 » Mon 20 Apr, 2020 8:49 pm

I am sure PCem v16 will be amazing. I will test it when I get the chance. I got a number of games working on v15, including Aces over Europe, Aces over the Pacific, A10 Tank Killer, TIE Fighter Collector's Edition CDROM, and Star Trek 25th Anniversary. For v13.1, I got the win95 versions of XWing 95 and TIE Fighter 95 (from the X-Wing Collectors Series), X-Wing vs TIE Fighter and even X-Wing Alliance. The X-Wing games made for win95/98 even work with the Voodoo 2 graphics card, delivering excellent performance on just a Pentium MMX 233.

The key to running hard to run games like Star Trek 25th Anniversary, Aces over Europe and Aces over the Pacific on DOS or win98 is to run memmaker from the DOS prompt at c:\. Once you launch memmaker you will be given two options: Express Setup or Custom Setup. Choose custom setup so you get the chance to free up as much 640k memory as possible. Answer yes to the first question, you will still need expanded memory. Next you will receive a list of questions. The items in the list need to be set before you press enter to accept all changes. Only the monochrome question should be no, unless you need that option. If you are only using DOS then the question regarding optimizing memory for Windows can be set to no. Answer yes to the first one on the list and then yes for all the specific drivers and TSRs it will ask you about. This will move all drivers and TSRs to upper memory instead of conventional memory. memmaker will now restart your system twice on its own, even in win98! You will then restart directly to memmaker with a list of conventional memory and expanded memory available. The conventional memory should now read 627k or better.

With conventional memory freed up, in DOS or Win98, you will now be able to play these hard to run DOS games.

For PCem v13.1, the only one that recognizes a joystick on my PC, to run the great XWing series of games (the ones made or tuned for Win95/98) with the amazing Voodoo 2, you should avoid using the Diamond Monster 2 driver set entirely. Instead, I used the Voodoo2 driver set 3.01.01 from the NHL 2000 CD. I also used the s3 virge DX as my 2D card along with the Voodoo 2. The X-Wing series games, even X-Wing Alliance, ran beautifully in full 3D graphics.

For NHL 2000 itself, I have only one problem. The game runs fine but the in-game text does not work. Instead of letters or words, I get nothing but weird orange boxes all over the place. No 2D card makes a difference. To bypass the "No CD in the CD-Rom drive" error, I used Daemon Tools, even on the Pentium MMX 233! Sadly, with this strange graphical glitch, NHL 2000 does not work right.

PCem is an amazing program. I got games working with this program that I simply could not use any other way.

Thank you for making PCem!

tk421

win2kgamer
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Re: Voodoo3 support in Future ?

Post by win2kgamer » Mon 20 Apr, 2020 9:18 pm

PCem v16 is amazing and seems to have run almost everything I've thrown at it with only a handful of exceptions (mostly *really* picky early 90s exotic OSes like NeXTSTEP 3.1-3.2 and OS/2 2.0 Limited Availability, the latter of which is difficult on real hardware as well considering how timing-sensitive it is even compared to OS/2 1.x.) I can't think of a single game in my collection that's failed to run in this emulator.

I've had a lot of fun testing this release over the last month or so (haven't done this kind of testing since the v14 dev cycle two years ago) and it's amazing how far this emulator's come since I initially played with it back in 2013/2014. As for the initial topic of Voodoo3 support, I don't really see the point in doing so until current hardware is able to handle the K6-II/K6-III (or a future PII/III) core at full speed as even my i7-9700k can't quite handle a K6 over 233-ish MHz. I see the existing ViRGE/DX and Voodoo2 support as more than adequate for Pentium MMX/early K6/low MHz K6-II configurations.

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leilei
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Re: Voodoo3 support in Future ?

Post by leilei » Tue 21 Apr, 2020 12:44 am

I've always said it's technically possible because it's pretty much a fast VG with a 2D core and the data sheets are out there and it's still very much a PCI part and the recompiler can still be used and has practicality for compatibility and performance reasons (lower res support and primary GL/D3D devices), and I do not want any of my words to be behalfed and twisted into a big request. I'm only saying it's technically possible, unlike any PowerVR card, UMC boards/chips, etc. not "likely".

.....and since COVID-19 is putting a big concerning strain on a lot of livelihood (especially in europe) there really shouldn't be _any_ pressuring demand about any new features of a hobby project.

Starfox
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Re: Voodoo3 support in Future ?

Post by Starfox » Tue 21 Apr, 2020 7:23 am

SarahWalker wrote:
Mon 20 Apr, 2020 3:28 pm
Jesus, I only just released v16, and you already want MORE!
It was just a question of whether this feature could come in the future. I didn't want to stress anyone

I´m very happy with PCEM Software, it´s a Masterpiece !

Xanarki
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Re: Voodoo3 support in Future ?

Post by Xanarki » Tue 21 Apr, 2020 3:34 pm

I think that the Voodoo2 is the most logical choice for PCem, it always has been. It was viable for most games all the way until mid-2000, which is unbelievable considering the landscape at the time.

With that being said, any other card that Sarah might consider (I tried asking in another topic her personal preference), is simply for novelty, and variety. Any other card would not have the same impact as the Voodoo2 would. Granted, maybe Voodoo3 would be easier than others because of what Leilei stated, but it'd have the same effect as any other card, you know?

Mistique would've been cool, just another option, but it's not essential in a sense and I can understand why things were halted.

Siggy12
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Re: Voodoo3 support in Future ?

Post by Siggy12 » Tue 21 Apr, 2020 3:48 pm

Voodoo 2 SLI configuration is impressive under PCem after I have seen UNREAL it make me wonder again like in the 1998 when I saw it first time, absolutely stunning.

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leilei
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Re: Voodoo3 support in Future ?

Post by leilei » Tue 21 Apr, 2020 5:58 pm

Xanarki wrote:
Tue 21 Apr, 2020 3:34 pm
Mistique would've been cool, just another option, but it's not essential in a sense and I can understand why things were halted.
Mystique does a lot of things better than the ViRGE though... Its D3D HAL definitely is not the best (no fog capabilities prevents even some 96 D3D games from starting) but it's no slouch when it comes to delivering that 'arcade performance' when it does work. and there's the exclusive MSI API stuff. Preservation of hardware via software is nice and PCem breaks a lot of ground in that area.

The ViRGE does beat it at DOS compatibility that's for sure (real and emulated). There's palette corruption with Terra Nova, Keen breaks a bit etc. on the mystique emulation and those are real issues common on Matrox MGA hardware.

Xanarki
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Re: Voodoo3 support in Future ?

Post by Xanarki » Tue 21 Apr, 2020 8:57 pm

You know what? I completely forgot that the Mystique was 2D/3D like the ViRGE. I was never familiar with Matrox, and barely remember them back in the late '90s!

In regards to 2D, is the ViRGE/DX (or Diamond Stealth 3D?) the newest ones in PCem? My knowledge on 2D and pre-3D in general is limited.

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SarahWalker
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Re: Voodoo3 support in Future ?

Post by SarahWalker » Tue 21 Apr, 2020 9:30 pm

Either ViRGE/DX or the ATi Mach64VT2 - I think they're roughly contemporaneous.

tk421
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Re: Voodoo3 support in Future ?

Post by tk421 » Wed 22 Apr, 2020 7:05 pm

Sarah, may I ask if the ATI Video Xpression you mention is the Xpression 3D or just the normal VT2 without 3D capabilities? The reason I ask is because I had the ATI Video Xpression 3D back in the day, and it had decent 3D capabilities, though not at all on the same level as the Matrox Mystique or the Voodoo.

Way back, I could play X-Wing 95 and TIE Fighter 95 with excellent 3D accelerated graphics, though Jedi Knight did not look that good. Today with the Voodoo2 both JK and the X-Wing series of games look far better than they did back in the 90s.

So far v16 is looking good.

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SarahWalker
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Re: Voodoo3 support in Future ?

Post by SarahWalker » Wed 22 Apr, 2020 7:39 pm

VT2 without 3D.

tk421
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Re: Voodoo3 support in Future ?

Post by tk421 » Fri 24 Apr, 2020 7:38 pm

Thank you Sarah. So far v16 seems to be working fine. I will do my joystick test soon.

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omarsis81
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Re: Voodoo3 support in Future ?

Post by omarsis81 » Wed 13 May, 2020 4:57 am

I noted that the Bochs emulator has the Banshee and the Voodoo3 and the source code is available here: https://sourceforge.net/p/bochs/code/HEAD/tree/tags/REL_2_6_11_FINAL/bochs/iodev/display/
In case a skillful programmer wants to port it. I believe it is better than star from scratch

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leilei
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Re: Voodoo3 support in Future ?

Post by leilei » Wed 13 May, 2020 7:08 am

Seems derived from the old DOSBox patch derived from an older MAME and carries the older MAME license mixed in there. Note that MAME's source already has the Banshee and V3 but aren't really backportable to PCem. (and supposedly those Golden Tee Fore! games use it, which aren't PC arcades that run on a Windows with proper VGA drivers with validation etc.. so it's possibly too incomplete to be useful for Windows anyway)

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SarahWalker
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Re: Voodoo3 support in Future ?

Post by SarahWalker » Wed 13 May, 2020 8:20 am

omarsis81 wrote:
Wed 13 May, 2020 4:57 am
I noted that the Bochs emulator has the Banshee and the Voodoo3 and the source code is available here: https://sourceforge.net/p/bochs/code/HEAD/tree/tags/REL_2_6_11_FINAL/bochs/iodev/display/
In case a skillful programmer wants to port it
What a brilliant idea. But why stop there? You could take the CPU emulation, and sound emulation, and hard disc emulation, and CD-ROM emulation, and the UI. In fact, why not just take the Bochs code, change the name and release it as "New PCem! Sarah removed! By a Skillful Programmer (which we definitely didn't have before)!".

Jesus Christ. What a shitty start to the day. Thanks omarsis81.

Cheez
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Re: Voodoo3 support in Future ?

Post by Cheez » Wed 13 May, 2020 2:14 pm

Uh, you kind of flipped out for literally no reason. Is that your way of saying you can't do it?

The guy's being unspecific about who does it because otherwise you would have been complaining that people constantly want you to add things to PCem but you complained anyway because you decided to take what was said the way you wanted to take it.

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omarsis81
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Re: Voodoo3 support in Future ?

Post by omarsis81 » Wed 13 May, 2020 2:18 pm

SarahWalker wrote:
Wed 13 May, 2020 8:20 am
omarsis81 wrote:
Wed 13 May, 2020 4:57 am
I noted that the Bochs emulator has the Banshee and the Voodoo3 and the source code is available here: https://sourceforge.net/p/bochs/code/HEAD/tree/tags/REL_2_6_11_FINAL/bochs/iodev/display/
In case a skillful programmer wants to port it
What a brilliant idea. But why stop there? You could take the CPU emulation, and sound emulation, and hard disc emulation, and CD-ROM emulation, and the UI. In fact, why not just take the Bochs code, change the name and release it as "New PCem! Sarah removed! By a Skillful Programmer (which we definitely didn't have before)!".

Jesus Christ. What a shitty start to the day. Thanks omarsis81.
I'm sorry if I made you feel like shit. Of course that wasn't the idea of the post
Just use the Voodoo3 file as a base (maintaining the copyright of course). The CPU emulation PCem is the best of all emulators, interface PCem is way better than Bochs, CD-ROM, and all. As a matter of fact, Bochs is a piece of crap PCem is way ahead. And I'm not saying this to trying to be polite with you but Bochs is so crap you have to enter manually the Instructions per second of each CPU and that totally sucks.


If I offended you I offer my sincere apologies. You know I appreciate you.

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leilei
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Re: Voodoo3 support in Future ?

Post by leilei » Wed 13 May, 2020 3:03 pm

Go back to this sentence
omarsis81 wrote:
Wed 13 May, 2020 4:57 am
I believe it is better than star from scratch
Years on my own project, I've had "armchair developer" attitudes like that casting doubts my ability to create art without looking at the big picture, assuming frankensteining one completely different thing (10k+ poly PBR/realistic models) to another (<3k diffuse-only stylized models) is an easy job and makes a project better assuming I were helpless at what I like to do for a hobby. Even license mixing was mentioned because it's easy to suggest when they don't have to deal with it. If I had took the years of "advice", I would have gone through three whole engine switches at least... and just last week I was 'advised' to change my model pipeline towards some "industry standard" FBX crap! The urgent persistence stresses me the hell out.

Gratuitously trashing bochs afterward won't negate this.

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SarahWalker
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Re: Voodoo3 support in Future ?

Post by SarahWalker » Wed 13 May, 2020 3:59 pm

omarsis81 wrote:
Wed 13 May, 2020 2:18 pm
Just use the Voodoo3 file as a base (maintaining the copyright of course).
You say that like it's an easy thing to do. The reality is that if anyone wanted to do this, the only sane way to do it would be to throw away the existing PCem Voodoo code, that I have spent a considerable amount of time and energy on. And that's not what I want PCem to be, just a compilation of other people's code.

I should point out incidentally, that the reason PCem currently doesn't emulate the Voodoo 3 isn't because I'm not talented or skillful enough to add it, or because I'm being difficult and moody. It's because the CPU emulation currently isn't fast enough to justify it, the rendering backend currently isn't fast enough to produce Voodoo 3 fillrates, and because in the absence of those two there's little benefit to it Voodoo 3 emulation is very low priority and therefore I haven't implemented it. Sure, another "skillful programmer" _could_ implement it, but you'll have noticed no one has magically popped up offering to do it have they? So as with so many other things, it's something that would end up being implemented by me, hence of course I'm going to take this personally!

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SarahWalker
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Re: Voodoo3 support in Future ?

Post by SarahWalker » Wed 13 May, 2020 4:19 pm

The guy's being unspecific about who does it
While there are a few other contributors to PCem, whose work I'm extremely grateful for (particularly as it's in areas that otherwise wouldn't get covered, either because I don't have the time or the knowledge - Greatpsycho's Korean stuff being a great example of the latter), I've not seen much sign that anyone has really been getting to grips with the overall high-level design of the emulator, and how the various components interact, which would be needed for a task of this scale. So in practice "the person who does it" would for 99% of requests be me.

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omarsis81
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Re: Voodoo3 support in Future ?

Post by omarsis81 » Wed 13 May, 2020 10:19 pm

SarahWalker wrote:
Wed 13 May, 2020 3:59 pm
omarsis81 wrote:
Wed 13 May, 2020 2:18 pm
Just use the Voodoo3 file as a base (maintaining the copyright of course).
You say that like it's an easy thing to do. The reality is that if anyone wanted to do this, the only sane way to do it would be to throw away the existing PCem Voodoo code, that I have spent a considerable amount of time and energy on. And that's not what I want PCem to be, just a compilation of other people's code.
Ok, as I know nothing about programming I didn't know you had to replace all Voodoo code. I thought it would be simpler... Voodoo graphics is available since 2015, so it is five years of coding and I didn't mean to throw away your efforts. Again, I thought only the Voodoo3 section or Voodoo3 enhancements had to be added.

I'm never going to suggest something like this. My apologies again.

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leilei
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Re: Voodoo3 support in Future ?

Post by leilei » Thu 14 May, 2020 1:38 am

If you've ever read the Voodoo.cpp in MAME, you'll notice there's huge confusing, conflicting chunks of registers between Banshee and V2 and that doesn't scratch much on the VGA part of it! Probably what never helped are all the past popular broadly naive misconceptions about the cards, such as "Banshee is V2 with one TMU" or "Voodoo3 is V2 SLI in one card" that always trivialize the amount of effort it would take to make something more of an accelerated 2D VGA card with some Voodoo Graphics bits in it working with the completely different memory controller / layout etc. Given it's not really an iteration and more of a completely different animal, the Voodoo3 name is a big misnomer.

Similarly it's insufficient to transplant MAME's Powervr2.cpp to become Neon250 emulation as that's also missing VGA stuff (among missing a whole lot of other stuff like dithering and tiles) and I know i've been constantly bugged to return to grinding my brain at what PVR drivers do for PCem PCX2 emulation (while being shamed for it at the same time) when it's a complete mystery with no datasheet out there while nobody has ever done any definite accurate powervr emulation for anything...

tk421
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Re: Voodoo3 support in Future ?

Post by tk421 » Sat 16 May, 2020 9:09 pm

The only games I can think of that need the Voodoo3 are Jedi Outcast, Jedi Academy and Star Trek: Bridge Commander, all of which run better on an XP system than they ever did on a Pentium II even with a Voodoo3. Any game in this category can be run in VMware using XP or Win7.

The one game I tried with the Voodoo 2 in PCem that did not work right was NHL 2000. I solved the "No CD-ROM found" error by loading my bin/cue with Daemon Tools within my P233 MMX system using Win98se. I was surprised Daemon Tools could run well on such an old system, but that just shows how great and amazing PCem really is.

The only problem with NHL 2000 in PCem is a graphical glitch that turns all of the in-game text into weird orange boxes. In a few weeks I will get the chance to upload that screenshot, because it is the only problem running that great old game on PCem with the Voodoo 1 or the Voodoo 2. Apart from this one weird graphical glitch, this game is fast, efficient and better than on my old XP system.

I even got Star Trek Armada II working with the k6-2 300 cpu on a socket 7 motherboard, and did not need the super socket 7. Video scenes are choppy but in-game performance is great.

DS9: The Fallen works ok with the k6-2. Dominion Wars is hard to get working but once you are in-game playing a mission performance is surprisingly good compared to the menus and pre-game screens, which are as bad as they are on a modern PC.

I was finally able to get the old X-Wing series games working on PCem using Voodoo 2 graphics using the V2 drivers from my NHL 2000 CD. It is best to only install one set of V2 drivers and not 2 or 3. The Diamond Monster II driver set is not as good as the V2 driver set from the NHL 2000 CD. X-Wing 95, TIE Fighter 95, X-Wing vs TIE Fighter and X-Wing Alliance work great even when pairing the Voodoo 2 with the Virge DX.

PCem is amazing software for any Win98 emulation or virtualization needs. PCem development has produced superior technology that follows a clearly logical and formidable design and plan built some years ago which continues to impress me to this day. Even this website is well run and managed. I thank Sarah and leilei for working on PCem. I do not see any need for them to change their plans for PCem.

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omarsis81
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Re: Voodoo3 support in Future ?

Post by omarsis81 » Sat 16 May, 2020 10:59 pm

tk421 what about DirectX support? Voodoo2 has DX 5.0 while Voodoo3 has DX 6.0 - I bet more games would need the Voodoo3 than those three you mention

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leilei
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Re: Voodoo3 support in Future ?

Post by leilei » Sun 17 May, 2020 12:06 am

tk421 wrote:
Sat 16 May, 2020 9:09 pm
The only games I can think of that need the Voodoo3 are Jedi Outcast, Jedi Academy
In that case it's more of r_gldriver being ripped out. It'll run if you force copy 3dfxvgl.dll over to the game folder as opengl32.dll, though IIRC there was text coordinate issues on real hardware. Maybe the MesaFX dlls are a (slower) option for that

I did try it on v12 some 3 years ago.
pcemjk2.jpg
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omarsis81 wrote:
Sat 16 May, 2020 10:59 pm
Voodoo2 has DX 5.0 while Voodoo3 has DX 6.0
Voodoo2 already leverages DX6's big multitexturing gains so they're not really that functionally different. Both aren't fully DX6 feature compliant anyway since they lack S3TC compressed textures. A full DX6 card's more like a S3 Savage4/2000 / PowerVR KYRO.

V3's working in more games from offering more memory, and being a primary device which makes newer games happy (more out of >2000 developer negligence to look for secondary devices since the only relevant one would be way obsolete by then). Banshee would bring the same compatibility advantages. Speaking from first-hand experience, NOT to be behalfed/implied as a weaseled request.

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