Future graphics card emulation

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SarahWalker
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Re: Future graphics card emulation

Post by SarahWalker »

Voodoo 5 documentation is missing all the register definitions, so is not useful for emulation.
riva128.txt is _very_ incomplete.
Bogus
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Re: Future graphics card emulation

Post by Bogus »

I know, missing 3d registers for riva 128?
Is also envytools on github, there is documentation on 2d/3d registers, e.g pfb, pfifo, pgraph, etc.
Actually, no documentation for voodoo 5.
Maybe are registers from previous voodoo, but with extensions for newest drectx versions?
Reverse engineering can be done, but it require disassembly drivers and test on real hardware, he he.
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leilei
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Re: Future graphics card emulation

Post by leilei »

...the previous Voodoo to V5 is literally the Voodoo5, and it's already majorly different from Voodoo3 (as explained in the OP) and 2020 doesn't have a consumer-grade CPU to emulate a Voodoo5 anyway.


I'm sure even weird Quantum3D Obsidian variants are off the table (like the single board SLI V2 on AGP)
Cheez
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Re: Future graphics card emulation

Post by Cheez »

Frankly the only graphics emulation I care about is getting enough distinct cards with different standards to provide complete compatibility for hardware-3D games. That's the spot where modern systems struggle to run programs the most. I always consider the goal of these kinds of emulation projects to make everything work again without having to rely on separate hardware.
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leilei
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Re: Future graphics card emulation

Post by leilei »

Same. I'll take RagePro/Verite/MGA/Glint/Rush over Voodoo5/NV* any day. All 1st gen 3D are a curious treasure and PCem's the most appropriate project for such implementations.


Not graphics card related, but I feel like I should also shout-out the recent strides of ParaLLEl on RetroArch for doing 'upscaled' RDP pretty quickly in Vulkan. It's pretty impressive from the execution performance seeing low-level N64 rendered 4x higher without much of a hit, antialiasing and noise included while still having the timing down.
vbdasc
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Re: Future graphics card emulation

Post by vbdasc »

> If the card you're thinking of isn't listed then it probably isn't interesting enough to be worth emulating.

Forgive me for this (probably) stupid question, but is there any objective criteria for a card to be considered interesting/worthy? IMHO, the performance of the real thing shouldn't play a role here. IMHO, the usefulness of a card under emulation should simply be a function of the amount of software that can be used with it. Direct3D is a plus, accelerated OpenGL is another, GLide is yet another, as are any proprietary 3D APIs for Dos/Windows (PowerSGL, Metal, RRedline etc.), and of course, VESA BIOS support, and... that is it. Why is a card like Cirrus Logic Laguna 3D uninteresting if it has Direct3D emulation? Sure, there are more interesting cards than it, but still...
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leilei
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Re: Future graphics card emulation

Post by leilei »

Probably because it's not worth the effort for all the funny wonky affine texture mapping the Laguna3D's notoriously known for. That's all it would lead to. No further video cards could derive off of that point. Direct3D support is common with about every 3d card already listed, and basic support of Direct3D in much of this early 3D generation isn't a guarantee of capabilities. The Mystique is interesting as it is fast, has interesting drivers, its own MSI3D API, and a line of successors, yet it can't fog, blend or filter like many other cards emulated/listed.

Most of the big names in 3D that aren't listed are probably all pro industry CAD cards impossible to emulate quickly for precision reasons (FireGL, Intergraph, etc) and aren't for games anyway.

my 2cents
vbdasc
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Re: Future graphics card emulation

Post by vbdasc »

leilei wrote: Tue 21 Jul, 2020 11:41 am Probably because it's not worth the effort for all the funny wonky affine texture mapping the Laguna3D's notoriously known for.
Thanks, I didn't know about that. A weird feature that is hard to implement is definitely an argument against the card.
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SarahWalker
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Re: Future graphics card emulation

Post by SarahWalker »

vbdasc wrote: Tue 21 Jul, 2020 11:18 am > If the card you're thinking of isn't listed then it probably isn't interesting enough to be worth emulating.

Forgive me for this (probably) stupid question, but is there any objective criteria for a card to be considered interesting/worthy?
Yes, whether I'm interested in it or not.

To explain this (because I apparently have to now), for it to be worth weeks if not months of my time to emulate a card, it has to fulfill at least one of :

* Be technically interesting (eg Rendition Verite)
* Allow some new software to run which didn't run on previously emulated cards (eg Mystique, Rage3D, 3D Blaster have games targetting native APIs)
* Have some personal interest for me (eg Rage Pro and Voodoo Banshee)

Laguna3D does none of these. It is not very interesting technically (with the lack of hardware perspective correction being the only unusual thing about it, and that's more cheap than interesting). It only supports Direct3D, and there are other emulated cards that do that, so it doesn't allow us to run any new software. And I've never owned one so it has no personal interest to me. Which are perfectly good reasons for me not to spend time emulating it.
__kb__
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Re: Future graphics card emulation

Post by __kb__ »

Rendition Verite emulation would be awesome. Some Papyrus Design games have the native API as the only supported hardware accelerated 3D (Indycar Racing II/CART Racing, SODA Offroad Racing) while others support the native API, but have other renderers too (Nascar Racing II, Nascar Racing 1999 Edition, Grand Prix Legends). Drivers and SDK can be found here but I guess you have them already
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leilei
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Re: Future graphics card emulation

Post by leilei »

The "programmability" part of the Rendition's the intriguing part of the card to me. Actual hardware is unstable though (freezes). Latest drivers can run Q3 somehow.
PentiumMMX
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Re: Future graphics card emulation

Post by PentiumMMX »

how about the Number Nine Imagine 128 or the Video 7 VGA 1024i. How hard would it be to add either of those graphics cards?
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SarahWalker
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Re: Future graphics card emulation

Post by SarahWalker »

If the card you're thinking of isn't listed then it probably isn't interesting enough to be worth emulating.
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omarsis81
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Re: Future graphics card emulation

Post by omarsis81 »

PentiumMMX wrote: Thu 06 Aug, 2020 2:05 am how about the Number Nine Imagine 128 or the Video 7 VGA 1024i. How hard would it be to add either of those graphics cards?
The Nine Imagine 128 is for editing and CAD I believe and those cards are more difficult to implement, and really worthless. Besides, we all want PCem to play old games, right? If you want image editing or CAD you would go with modern software
Cheez
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Re: Future graphics card emulation

Post by Cheez »

And I would assume they weren't vital to running any programs that supported them.
ENM23
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Re: Future graphics card emulation

Post by ENM23 »

Well, I miss the Maxi Gamer Phoenix. ;)

BTW why isn't there an emulation of the Onboard S3 Trio64 for Endeavor and Zappa?
Owned one of them in the mid 90s when Win95 came out.
PentiumMMX
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Re: Future graphics card emulation

Post by PentiumMMX »

86box has the onboard GPUs emulated for the Endeavor/Zappa unlike PCem.
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gen_angry
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Re: Future graphics card emulation

Post by gen_angry »

ENM23 wrote: Tue 11 Aug, 2020 12:59 pm Well, I miss the Maxi Gamer Phoenix. ;)

BTW why isn't there an emulation of the Onboard S3 Trio64 for Endeavor and Zappa?
Owned one of them in the mid 90s when Win95 came out.
Is there a difference between selecting that board + selecting the Trio64 card that is emulated vs an 'onboard trio64'? Functionally, they should be the same, no?
ENM23
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Re: Future graphics card emulation

Post by ENM23 »

gen_angry wrote: Fri 14 Aug, 2020 7:59 pm
Is there a difference between selecting that board + selecting the Trio64 card that is emulated vs an 'onboard trio64'? Functionally, they should be the same, no?
Well, I didn't know if it's handled in different ways in PCem, but in the bios you can't set graphic specific options.
But this was only something I noticed.
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SarahWalker
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Re: Future graphics card emulation

Post by SarahWalker »

Two reasons the onboard video isn't emulated on Endeavor (Zappa doesn't have onboard video); firstly, it's a Trio64V+ rather than the regular Trio64 that PCem currently emulates. Secondly, I've not seen any dumps of the onboard video BIOS, which probably isn't the same as you'd get on a PCI card. I periodically look for this Endeavor-with-video board on eBay so I can dump the BIOS myself, but I've never seen one for sale, only the version without video.
ENM23
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Re: Future graphics card emulation

Post by ENM23 »

Thank's for that advice.
I could swear my driver disk was labled with Trio64 only not V+, but seems to be wrong as you say. Sadly I didn't own that old PC, so I can't help with the bios.
dondiego
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Re: Future graphics card emulation

Post by dondiego »

Some smart guy at the 86Box discord wrote this:
it´s the trio64, not trio64v+
the video bios is provided by the machine bios
all you need to do is add a trio64 without bios bar
at the right pci slot (08)
UPerschke
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Re: Future graphics card emulation

Post by UPerschke »

SarahWalker wrote: Sat 15 Aug, 2020 7:47 pm firstly, it's a Trio64V+ rather than the regular Trio64 that PCem currently emulates.
It's a Trio64: http://intel-vintage-developer.eu5.org/ ... /INDEX.HTM
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SarahWalker
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Re: Future graphics card emulation

Post by SarahWalker »

So it is. No idea why I thought it was a V+!
ENM23
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Re: Future graphics card emulation

Post by ENM23 »

I've digged out an manual on my HDD, which can also found here:
https://www.elhvb.com/mobokive/Archive/ ... 183501.pdf

Here is also the wrong information published:
https://www.vogonswiki.com/index.php/In ... E2%88%95EV

And for those interested in, a Zappa manual (Yes, no onboard graphic):
http://tulrich.com/tectrixvr/intel_pba- ... manual.pdf
twilen
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Re: Future graphics card emulation

Post by twilen »

My first post. Non-PC request from WinUAE (Amiga emulator) developer who few years ago used PCem core to emulate Commodore PC bridgeboards (expansion board that has almost complete PC chipset on board + shared dualported RAM + custom chip that enables input, storage and video in Amiga side. Was updated with latest PCem few weeks ago.):

PCI Voodoo 3 and any card that used Permedia 2 chip.

Permedia 2 because it is used in "old" (not physically PCI connector) display card that supports 8M of VRAM. Almost all Amiga cards from 1990s are max 4M only, limiting resolutions and color depths.
Voodoo 3 (does not even need full 3D hardware support, just enough to get working display, unless blitter uses 3D hardware? Same with Permedia 2). Every Amiga-like OS supports Voodoo 3 (with PCI bridge hardware) and it has even larger VRAM size support than Permedia 2 based hardware. Later PCI boards are far too complex.

I request these two because I really don't want to write emulation based on PC chipsets (and I really don't want to do 3D stuff) but they are also most wanted graphics card chipsets in Amiga emulation and PCem video system is very modular and easy to use elsewhere and Amiga software supports large resolutions/bit depths nicely, even if it didn't exist back in the day. I also volunteer to test partial implementation if needed.

btw, last few weeks I have been implementing wrapper that allows use of PCem graphics chip emulation as Amiga graphics board (replacing old QEMU Cirrus Logic emulation which looks like it was never designed for accuracy or compatibility). S3Trio64 (CyberVision64), S3Virge (CyberVision643D) and CL5429 (actually 5426, 5428 and 5446, lots of models, for example PicassoII and IV. I am also going to add still missing CL5436/5446 overlay support next) are currently working quite nicely after some missing features/bugs were added/fixed. I'll post patch/bug descriptions later. (This is probably wrong thread to discuss this stuff but I think posting some background information was good idea because this isn't 100% PCem related. Please don't reply to this last part in this thread.)
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gen_angry
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Re: Future graphics card emulation

Post by gen_angry »

I picked up a S3 Trio 64V2/DX (actually two by a weird circumstance), is there a major difference between this and the Trio 64+ for emulation?
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SarahWalker
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Re: Future graphics card emulation

Post by SarahWalker »

Trio 64V2/DX is a ViRGE variant.
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gen_angry
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Re: Future graphics card emulation

Post by gen_angry »

SarahWalker wrote: Wed 19 Aug, 2020 6:28 pm Trio 64V2/DX is a ViRGE variant.
Ah, ok. Strange they'd keep it in the 'Trio' family. Thanks for the info :)

In any case, after getting them in and testing - one card is actually a Trio64 and the other is DOA - doesn't output video. :'( that's ebay for you...
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SarahWalker
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Re: Future graphics card emulation

Post by SarahWalker »

gen_angry wrote: Wed 19 Aug, 2020 6:53 pm
SarahWalker wrote: Wed 19 Aug, 2020 6:28 pm Trio 64V2/DX is a ViRGE variant.
Ah, ok. Strange they'd keep it in the 'Trio' family. Thanks for the info :)
My guess is that ViRGE had quite a bad reputation but Trio64 was quite popular in the business market, so they switched name. That's marketing for you...
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